Beyond The Gaze: The Jule Campbell Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue Documentary Interview w/Jill Campbell

Look behind the Look explores your favorite looks in film, television and fashion history

>> Tiffany Bartok: Welcome to look behind the look, the celebrated podcast that explores your favorite looks in film, television and fashion history. Through conversations with the fashion world's elite and award winning hair, makeup and costume designers on sets around the world, you will see and hear exciting tales from behind the scenes, career origin stories and tons of advice and tips. I'm your host, Tiffany Bartok. Hey everybody. Welcome to look behind the Look. This episode is going to be about a film at DOC nyc and I'm going to be talking about a couple of films that are going to be at DOC nyc. That's the film festival that's happening right now in New York. It's a documentary film festival. That's absolutely amazing. I'm a little bit biased because our film, Larger than Life was there a couple of years ago and it was by far the greatest experience, as far as the New York film festivals go to be really showing to full packed houses. The screening that I'm going to be talking about now, beyond the Gays, is sold out. The premier screening is sold out. However, there are many screenings and I hope you can make it to one of them. Beyond the Gays is about Julie Campbell. Julie Campbell is responsible for bringing us all that is the Sports Illustrated issue year after year after year. I had such an amazing experience because I got to work on one day of the shoots for this documentary. Just to simplify things, the director of this documentary is Jill Campbell. Simply put, she is the daughter in law of Julie Campbell who the film is about. she directed this film and we knew each other and so she was looking for makeup for the Elle McPherson section of the movie. And so I got to be on set that day and meet Julie Campbell, which was an unforgettable experience. I got to see these Polaroids up close and it was just unbelievable. You're going to love this mov tons of archival of icons like Christie Brinkley and Cheryl Teagues and it's such a story of women empowerment. It is beautiful what this woman did with her life. you learn a lot about memory and life and just beauty of living and it's just an inspiring film. You're going to really love it. I talked to Jill a little bit about being pigeonholed in the film directing world with a fashion doc, which people like to kind of boil this movie down to being. It's so much more. I really hope you can see it and please enjoy this conversation. No, not a picture of her bum.

>> Speaker B: But a picture where you see her bum. no, no, I think the Way she's doing it's 3/4, a little cover the way.

>> Tiffany Bartok: It's just I get all the now.

>> Speaker B: Feminist women asking me. Okay. And I'm already going straight to hell. Oh, she looks cute in her bathing su. Oh me, oh my. I see reflections of her.

>> Tiffany Bartok: But amidst the setting of serene water.

>> Speaker B: There's been a storm of protest from anti pornography groups. I'm taking the brunt for the others whose magazines expose a great deal more than we do. She looks cute in a bathing suit. All men agree she could be Miss America.

Beyond the Gaze will premiere at DOC NYC on November 17th

>> Tiffany Bartok: Hi, Jill. Thank you for talking to me today about beyond the Gaze. I, I don't know where to begin with this. the movie is incredible. It's premiering at DOC NYC on, November 17th. That's the new York premiere. It's premiered it at, Woodstock already. So a lot of people have gotten to enjoy the film already. And I saw it already has its letterboxd, yeah. Listing which is always a sign of like a. It's really finished. It's really happening.

>> Speaker B: Yeah.

>> Tiffany Bartok: I absolutely love this film and we'll get into all the reasons why.

The interview was so super long and chock full of all this information

But first, let's just tell everybody.

>> Speaker B: You absolutely loved it. It's okay.

>> Tiffany Bartok: I can stop there. Yeah, yeah. Okay. I loved it by.

>> Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I'm filmmakers. So we get it. We get this. You know, we just have shorthand on this whole conversation.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Julie. Julie would feel so honored. And the end. this. I'll tell everybody how, how, you and I know each other, being filmmakers. Fellow filmmakers in, we met in Film Fatales and you know, we have commiserated many a time on filmmaking, because we both found ourselves making films in the fashion world and sort of, hiding, getting labeled as our films were getting labeled as fashion films. And I want to talk to you a lot about that generalization, later on. And then you gave me a ring and I had the honor to work in, on the film with you, doing Elle McPherson's makeup, which was amazing. An amazing, mind blowing day. The interview was so super long and chock full of all this information and I couldn't believe what was happening.

Christy Brinkman met Julie Campbell when she was 21

As I'm looking at and meeting Julie Campbell, your mother in law, who is the reason that we have Sports Illustrated today still today, after all these years. And meeting her was truly an honor. She's since passed away and now this film lives on and we can learn all about all of her accomplishments. if you just want to tell us a little bit about Your relationship to Julie and how this can film came to be. I would love to hear it.

>> Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, so, you know, I got married when I was 21. I met Julie when I was 21. Like, I mean, six months out of college. I got married at 23, but I met Julie 21. I met my ex husband, 21, and she was actually on a shoot when I met him. So I got went to the farm and she wasn't there. And right away she was like this very interesting, mysterious woman. And you know, I. She's been in my life that whole time. And what's interesting is, you know, I am, divorced from Bruce, her son, but we have this modern family. And she was always my mentor, my second mother, this woman who just, you know, taught me so much in life. And you know, the hardest part was when we were divorced, divorcing. And there were like a year or two where things were rocky and we weren't in touch and I. We just really missed her. And then we. Bruce is an only child, Julie's an only child. We both have small families, we have children together. And we, we all found our ways back to like this very loving family. And when during the pandemic, we, my husband and I would check in on them and go and make meals for Julie and Bruce and, and just make sure they were okay. Spend long weekends, we literally like would isolate ourselves. Like I did. I knew I would be seeing her, so I just like she was part of my, like, you know. You know, we were like with each other in the pandemic.

>> Tiffany Bartok: you stayed at the farmhouse in the, in the pandemic together?

>> Speaker B: Not the whole time, but we stayed there a lot. We would go for like long five or six days. And then when I would come home, I would isolate myself so that I wouldn't catch anything because I knew I'd be going back. So like, we were really careful. And you know, she was in her 90s. She was bored. She was just ready to tell her story. Like every word that you met her, you know, she is so special. So special, so special. And every word that was coming out of her mouth, I was just like taking my phone out and filming.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Oh, wow.

>> Speaker B: I just wanted to preserve it. And then I wanted do a film on her for a long time. I mean, I've been doing this since 2006, making documentary. I mean, it's just never been the right time to ask, like because of our relationship, because of.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Oh sure.

>> Speaker B: Because of just life. And during this time I just asked Bruce, I'm like, can we please bring our good cameras? Like, this needs more than the iPhone. We have these amazing cameras at home. We just start filming her, and he let me and he let us. And my husband's, you know, a cinematographer on the film. And, like, as you see in the film, like, she wanted to write a book when she retired, when she was in her 70s, and she kept everything. So, like, literally, in the farmhouse, we were tripping over Super Eights on the floor. Like, you. I mean, it's beautiful old farmhouse, and there's just. It's a, bohemian, funky, amazing family home. And, like, I'd be like, what's this? And, like, picking up the Super Aid or, like, slides everywhere and just, like, remnants of her life at Sports Illustrated all around.

>> Tiffany Bartok: I love that scene when you go into the, room, and it's like, it looks like it was such a great reveal because it does look like, you know, like, it would be like mom and Dad's old china or something. But you, like, pull out and you're like, here's Christie. And it's like, Christy Brinkley, you know.

>> Speaker B: And you're just like, okay, wow, chicken sheds. And my best story about that is, so she had these chicken coops on the farm. Like, she lived on a family farm. And for, like, the 20 years I was married for Bruce, I was never allowed in those chicken coops. Like, they were such a mystery to me. And we were all my kids. We were all like, what's in the chicken coops? You know, and how funny. Yeah, they finally allowed me in the chicken coop.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Is it because they were. They were these archives that you weren't allowed.

>> Speaker B: She was just very protective of them. I don't know.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Interesting.

Did she know that you were making this documentary

>> Speaker B: Super interesting. But she. Yeah, maybe that's a good question. And, like, so she finally let me in the chicken coops, and there were, like, 40 styrofoam, coolers with slides and photos and, you know, memorabilia from time, plus, like, amazing, like, vintage clothing and jewelry and just like, all the. This cool stuff and, like, Documentarian's Dream.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah.

>> Speaker B: Because, I mean, we're still going through them. Like, there's still.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Are you going to, archive them in a book of some kind? Yeah. Oh, amazing. Amazing.

>> Speaker B: Thank you. We digitized, like, 10,000 slides. Like, we just sit by the TV. We bought a professional scanner, and we were like, drink whiskey at night and just like, I love that. Scan, scan, scan. But, on those super aids were like, they were never developed. So it was like Christie Brinkley on her first shoot, running on a beach in the 1970s or, like. And so it was just. It was really special.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Oh, wow. That. What a gift. What a gift. And then did she really know what. What was. Like, did she. Did she know that you were making this? Did she think you were making it for personal reasons? Or did she think that one day it would be out there for everybody to make? Like, did she understand the magnitude of the project?

>> Speaker B: Did understand the magnitude. And I wanted. That was really important to me for ethical reasons. And I included that scene of me telling her about the documentary. She was like, oh, I might not be here to see it. And, so good. Completely understood and gained agency. She wanted to tell her story. And, you know, she. It was really, really interesting because, you know, she was in her 90s, and they pop in and out of, like, memory loss or she didn't have dementia when we started, but as we, you know, we filmed her from, like, 93 to 96, so, like 95, she started getting, like. It was just. It's really like old age kind of memory loss. It wasn't like, you know, Alzheimer's, you know, but, like, she popped back into those memories and, like. And also she was really prolific and really honest about her mortality and m. Her. So it's like this beautiful time between us, and it. It got us closer because I was there for her, but she was there for me, and I was learning from her.

I was impressed with how you handled dealing with her memory in this film

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah, so the. The thing that I didn't know how I would talk about it with you today, because, I mean, I guess I should say spoiler alert, but I was so impressed with how you dealt with her memory, because, I mean, when I met her, I remember she was having a hard time placing things, and, I mean, she just was still loving life so much and so positive and amazing and. But I could tell that I was thinking, my God, to have this life and not. And to be living it while not really understanding everything that you did.

>> Speaker B: Yeah.

>> Tiffany Bartok: You handled this so well. It was kind of like a reveal, because I watched it with my husband, who didn't know anything, and so he. Like, we were a wreck at the end. When you sort of.

>> Speaker B: Audiences are. It's a wreck. But we won't tell the whole review.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Right, Right. The way you. It was almost in real time, the way you handled the memory aspect of everything. And I, wondered how you came to know how you were going to handle it.

>> Speaker B: It was really difficult, you know, because literally when we started, she was clear. I mean, she was older, so it Wasn't like, she was 93, so she wasn't able to move that well and forget little things. But it kept progressing. And then we had tried to, set up the interview with Elle from the beginning. Like, Elle wanted to come visit her, and I was, like, amazing. And, like, it took a year for Elle to finally. For our dates to work, for Elle to finally come visit. And she wanted. It wasn't just for our film. She really wanted to see Julie, as you said.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Right, of course. Yeah.

>> Speaker B: By that time, I mean, Elle visited two months before she passed away.

>> Tiffany Bartok: I mean, what a blessing.

>> Speaker B: What a blessing. And, like, I was. And she was really in a bad place at that point. Like, I was a nervous wreck. And I told. I was like, oh, you know, she pops in and out. And I didn't know what we would get because you saw how we set it up. Like, I shoot. I love shooting verite. Yes. We put the love on El in the driveway. We got her. Her. Her makeup. You. You were on it. You know, we kind of just really wanted to film them up again. And I was super nervous. I didn't know how Julie would react. And. But I told her what was happening. And I sat with her, next to her the whole time and held her hand before Elle was coming. And, like, that's what I did a lot on shoots. And literally, she. She popped back in. It was. It was amazing.

>> Tiffany Bartok: And she's magic.

>> Speaker B: It was this magical scene. And, you know, during the edit, and it's. It's really beautiful. We. People are like, oh, Elle comes too late. Oh, put Elle earlier. Like, I think of all these notes, like, what? And I was like, I can't do that. Like, Julie physically has deteriorated. I can't put L at the beginning of the movie.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Right.

>> Speaker B: I would love to for whatever note you want me to do, but it's just not gonna work. This is where it works. And it, like, it just fit in the story because she was winding down. And. And although she really popped, I mean, she's. She was amazing with Al. Yeah, that's how. That's where it had to be, because we're following her life and her journey. And, Like, that's what happened with a lot of the story. Like, people were like, you got a Tyra scene earlier. It's time you got up a tire earlier. And it's like, no, I'm a trained playwright. I'm a trained writer. I've studied structure for 20 years. And, like, that's where. That's my go to. Like, I'm like, no, this is where it's coming in the story. This is where it fits in the story. So.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Wow, that's. That's tough. Yeah. Because they want us to. What people might not know is they want us to front load everything with all the juicy crap and hook everybody in there. And it's like, it's just exhausting, all that nonsense. The.

The structure of this film is wonderful and it really makes the emotional weight powerful

>> Speaker B: Yeah.

>> Tiffany Bartok: I love that you stuck to your guns. It worked beautifully. The structure is, is wonderful and it really makes the emotional weight of it powerful. You know, my favorite part in the whole is when she says to Elle, I expect great things from you. You're going to. You're going to be fine.

>> Speaker B: But she's totally joking. And that's where, you know, she's really popped in. And there she literally. And then when she's like, it's a good thing. I'm not jealous. And it's like her sense of humor and everything and, and it, and you know, it's a. It's a total verite scene. And yes. And it's chansey because people want so much it. You know, but, but you know, I think that American audiences have to get. They like the slow burn when they're allowed to like, they like good structure and they like a beautiful, strong story when you are allowed to give it to them. And you know, I'm so old and I've been doing this for so long, I'm just like, I don't care.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah.

>> Speaker B: At this point, like, I'm like, how many? Like, of course I want to keep making films forever, but it's like, yeah. You know, you get it. That's what's great about age is like, you're just like, do it. Because this is how I know how to make a film.

>> Tiffany Bartok: And.

>> Speaker B: Right. I know you want me to front load, but that's not, that's not going to work for the story.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Exactly.

The film about Julie Campbell premieres November 17th at DOC NYC

Do you think that you were inspired probably by Julie and. And how she was like that too? I mean, people are going to see. It's amazing how she stuck to her guns and censored the girls and stood up to these men and brings her former partner to tears, you know, remembering her, how strong she was and amazing. And that must have been inspiring to you as a filmmaker as well as you were making this.

>> Speaker B: Yeah. And I'm glad that it inspired you. Like, it inspires all of us because we still have to work in the. In a. We still have to battle that at times. Yeah. And to see her in action and that she was just so strong. I Mean, I'm not that strong. I learned from her. And like what I realized about Julie was she didn't seem to have any issues with self esteem. Yeah, super interesting.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Like, true.

>> Speaker B: She had a lot of self esteem and self and strength where I'm a bundle of whatever.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Right, right.

>> Speaker B: Like, she. It's pretty amazing. And I think that's how she was able to do it. She was, she was raised by, you know, two strong parents and very Catholic upbringing. Although, like later in life she's more like spiritually religious and m showing. But, she just had this inner strength and she was also. Yeah, I mean, she's like us. She was an artist and she stuck to her inner core and she wouldn't be swayed. And she drove some people crazy because she was really stubborn on that. And like. But she. Look what she did, you know?

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah. It's incredible what she's done and what she did for the women and how grateful they are.

>> Speaker B: I feel like Julie Campbell would keep these men away. She was like, I get your behavior. I hear what you're saying. I'm going to give you my edits.

>> Tiffany Bartok: She was mama on that set. And the reason why I want to.

>> Speaker B: Talk about her and celebrate her. She's not with us anymore. She just passed away.

>> Tiffany Bartok: She was 96 years old. She lived an incredible life.

>> Speaker B: She was also the least paid at the magazine.

>> Tiffany Bartok: the lowest because she was a woman.

>> Speaker B: And she is.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Who garnered the $35 million a year for that one single issue?

>> Speaker B: Their highest selling. Highest selling issue.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Lowest paid person.

>> Speaker B: That's crazy.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Crazy, right? And she changed my life. I don't know. How old am I? So almost 30 years ago, she put me on the COVID of her magazine, Watch beyond the Gaze.

>> Speaker B: It premieres at DOC NYC on, November 17th.

>> Tiffany Bartok: And what I also was a. It was a big surprise to me to learn and watch you understand your ex husband through this, you know. And did that surprise you as well? Like that interview with Bruce was really beautiful where you discovered things about each other.

>> Speaker B: The whole thing is a gift. I mean. Yeah. Like, I didn't know what answer, like what he was gonna say.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah.

>> Speaker B: Because also I really wanted the audience to understand this really weird thing that I'm making a film on my former mother in law for my mother in law and she is. But get that relationship and make it. Make sure it didn't look like I was being, you know, I don't know, solicitous or taking advantage in any way. And like. Yeah, he was just beautiful in his answers.

>> Tiffany Bartok: You were. You were so good at. At doing that, at being sensitive and. And not exploiting anything. Your relationships or the girls. And so did you realize that? Like, did you have to check yourself ever, or is that just you?

>> Speaker B: Is that literally just me?

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah. Yeah.

>> Speaker B: And, it was our relationship, and we, you know, we were always close, but we did get closer those last couple of years. And I think also, besides just the film is she knew I had her back. Yeah. Like, the kids. I have adult kids, but they're gone and they're living their own lives. And of course, Bruce, her son, has her back and he's living with her. But, like, we were there a lot, and she just knew. Like, you know, she called me, I would visit her in the hospital or blah, blah, blah. Like, she knew I was there for her.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah.

>> Speaker B: And, Yeah, she's pretty amazing. It's funny, there was this one part in the hospital which we just couldn't put it in. But, like.

You have creative freedom as director, but you also want the trust of loved ones

Which I want to put in somewhere. But, like, she's. Because she talks about mortality a lot, and she's like, She's like, you better remember me when I'm gone because she broke her hip and.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yes. Right.

>> Speaker B: And I was there alone because actually Bruce was ill at the same time and couldn't visit her. So I. That's why I was there. And, And so she was like. And I was like, well, how do you. How am I going to remember you? You better. You better send me a sign. And she goes, I will be. I will send you a sign. I will be the pain in your ass.

>> Tiffany Bartok: That's awesome.

>> Speaker B: Like, that's awesome. Right? And she literally. It was. That's who she was. And, I mean, that's the hard thing about what we do. Like, there was nowhere to put that quote in the film and in the story, because you know how that scene went. And it was like. It just would have. There was just no place for it. But it's an outtake or it's a story to tell people. But she's.

>> Tiffany Bartok: You know what? You know what? My, When I want something like that in a movie, I keep it in as long as I can stand it. And then one day, Jace will do a screening for me, my husband, and he'll take it out. He'll. He'll ask the editor, like, take it out. And if I don't know, if I don't say, hey, where's that thing? Then it stays out. That's the rule.

>> Speaker B: Awesome. That's a good rule. That's A really good rule.

>> Tiffany Bartok: It's pretty good. And I have to say. But it sucks.

>> Speaker B: I know. I know.

>> Tiffany Bartok: I want it all. I want it all in. I know.

>> Speaker B: It's funny because my daughter, who's, you know, 30, like, that was another way I protected Julie, and, like, I want him. I showed my kids the scenes because I really want. They're protective of their grandmother.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Sure.

>> Speaker B: They're gonna obviously tell me the truth and kick. Kick the crap out of me if I do anything. They don't, you know, Right. Then you're like, they'll. They have no problem telling me the truth. Exactly. It was really cool with Hannah because there was a couple of scenes where, like, I got notes. I changed it. and she's like, why did you change that? Put it back. Put it back. And I did. And I was like, thank you. you're right. I knew my. My instincts were like, don't change this. Don't change this. What am I doing? And the whole time I'm like, this does not feel right. It doesn't feel right. And then I put it back, and it felt good. And, you know, the opposite of that is she's like, take that out. Just take it out.

>> Tiffany Bartok: So it goes both ways. It's balance.

>> Speaker B: It went both ways when it really, really, it worked. And my son was the same way. But, like, to me, they were like, really Julie's voice and protector, and they were like, you know, and obviously, you have creative freedom as the director at the end, but you also want the trust of, loved ones.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Of course. Of course. Of course. How do you.

So talking about what we were talking about in the beginning, how do you deal with this whole thing

So talking about what we were talking about in the beginning, how do you deal with this whole thing where everybody needs to slot the film in a category because it really is talking about a woman's career. Right. A woman's life, view on memory and life and death and all these beautiful things and being there for each other as women. But they just want it to be a fashion doc. Right. And.

>> Speaker B: Oh, what do you do? No, it's worse. This one's worse. They just wanted to be a film about women in bikinis.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Oh, of course. Yes.

>> Speaker B: No.

>> Tiffany Bartok: And just like, they wanted to be a magazine about women in bikini.

>> Speaker B: Yeah, it's the same. I. I feel what Julie. And it's like a couple of people have come up to me at festivals, and they're like, I wasn't going to see this, because I just thought, ah, Sports Illustrated, see models and bikinis. And they're like, I'm so glad I saw it. So we're trying to really change the narrative. Nice to the public and really get. Get it out there that this is. Right. It's about a woman in her career. And it's not tna. It's about beautiful photos. And you know, as women, we don't. That just doesn't even go across. I don't. It doesn't go across my mind, like, when I look at it.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Which part?

>> Speaker B: The tna?

>> Tiffany Bartok: Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Speaker B: Part of it. Like, it's just not. And maybe I'm naive, but like I'm. I have a different thought when I look at these photos or a woman in.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yes.

>> Speaker B: And Yeah, so I think it's just really, really changing, like working to change the narrative in the public through PR or through posts through.

Substack is where we can find you talking about behind the scenes filmmaking

I'm, doing like you saw. Like we're both doing substack. Like.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Oh, yes.

>> Speaker B: Part of the reason, like, just tell the inner story of what this is really about.

>> Tiffany Bartok: I love that you're doing the substack with it because for, those of you who don't know, Substack is this, it's basically now there's a big fight online because the writers want it to stay, You know, people who are writers want it to stay very literary and high, you know. But it's been a great way for all of us filmmakers and, you know, artists to be able to sort of blog and. And how, it is a place that we can sort of expand on our ideas. So you're making the film about beyond the gaze. Of course, you can't put everything that you are thinking and want to talk about in the film. So Substack is where we can find you talking about behind the scenes of filmmaking, of making this film in particular, and your more thoughts and things, about what's going on and with the film and of course where it's going to be distributed when that day arrives, which will be very exciting. but to. To, It's really wonderful to see you talking about all these ideas because as you're hearing from people who are on the festival trail with you and you're hearing these ideas from the audience members, it's. It's difficult to share those conversations past the ones that you're just having right there.

Some people thought the film was going to be about supermodels and bikinis

What are some things that people are. Are coming to you with, ah, in their travels and in your travels. I mean,

>> Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think it's just really beautiful that men and women are, ah. Nobody realized it was a woman behind this. And I Think, yeah, we're going behind the gaze. Like, we're breaking the gaze. And, you know, I think that people, like I said, like, some people thought it was going to be just about supermodels and bikinis. And I love that they're pleasantly surprised to find that this is a story that's universal, that is as relevant today as it was when she started in the 1960s about how she navigated this workplace with all male bosses. And she got her way. And she. By doing this, by the strength of the way she navigated it, she created, you know, one of the most profitable magazine issues in publishing history. So I think people are just. They really love the film. They're crying.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah, absolutely.

The world premiere of Julie's film was sold out to 300 people

>> Speaker B: Tyra Banks got up, on. First of all, the fact that she showed up, like, isn't that. I mean, I love her, and she's such a good person and very authentic, very down to earth. And, you know, when you meet her. And I was just blown away when they're like, oh, we're coming. We're going to be there. And I'm like, all right, awesome.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Isn't that validating? It's validating because she knows what that means for you. You know what I mean? And she knows how valuable that is, and that's just really wonderful.

>> Speaker B: And, like, being in this business, you're like, all right, I'm going to get the call. Something came up. You know, you're not m. Paying anyone to. For people to know you don't. We're indie filmmakers. We're not paying anyone to show up at these. At, you know, at these Q and A's, at these panels. They're doing it for, you know, for the love of Julie. And she. She got up on the stage for the Q and A, and she and her boyfriend watched the film and she started crying.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Oh, of course. Oh, my gosh. How amazing for you to experience that.

>> Speaker B: And this was our world premiere. I didn't know how the audience would react. I. I put my heart and soul into it. I take chances. It's not like your typical bio doc and could either love it or hate it, but we were sold out to 300 people. We. And, people were crying, and people. They touched people. And, you know, isn't that the goal? Like, cathartic experience where you're really learning about someone else's life and looking inward about your own life and. And, So it's. It's blown me away, and I'm still. I'm still. I'm still trying to process it all because we're still like in our festival run and we're, we're trying to sell it. So it's like, I, I want. I don't know if I'm going to fully be okay until I know, like, it's distributed and yeah. Share this with the country and, and it's such an important woman's story and nobody knows. Like, it's. I. That's also people. Women are coming up to me and they're like, like the. Even the moderator is Marianne Chanel and, and. And Mayera, who runs the Woodstock. Like, women relate to this story. You don't have to just be in fashion. You know, it's business. And, that's, yes, the most satisfying and it's what's blowing me away. And just the people are really loving the film. I mean, it's great. It's awesome.

>> Tiffany Bartok: You know, I love how you say, you know, she's so successful and we keep talking about. And then literally, when we said out loud, my husband and I together, I said, she must have done really well for herself. And at that very moment is when you, you reveal that she asked for a raise and he said, you have a husband. Right? Her boss said, you have a husband. So she never got that raise. And so to think that she's just doing what she loves for the love of doing it and never being compensated the way she should makes you crazy, but also makes you feel like, you know, you. How important it is to do what you love. You know what I mean?

>> Speaker B: Because that's a good point.

>> Tiffany Bartok: It's. It's like she didn't. She complained probably a few times probably about it in her life, but I never got the sense that it was unfulfilling for one single day, you know.

>> Speaker B: So she was like us, like, putting together a film. You know, it's like hiring the photographer, hiring your subjects, which were the models, putting together the wardrobe, which are the bathing suits. You know, it's all different. You know, finding the perfect location and, and then hoping that the magic, you know, you put it all together and. And there's magic that happens.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yes.

>> Speaker B: And that's kind of what we do as filmmakers. So, yeah, I mean, she, she got to do this dream career for 32 years and, and she loved the work, which, you know, we. We have to love the work or. Who would do this? I mean.

>> Tiffany Bartok: When you're saying sell it, it's making me laugh. When you're saying, I. I want to sell it, and it's making me laugh when. Because I know what you're saying. You're saying, I want to sell it, meaning I want distribution for my mother in law's life, please, so people can see how amazing she is. And there's still some jerk who's going to be on Instagram being like, so nice of this lady to make off her mother in law.

>> Speaker B: Thank you. Just, you know, spoiler alert. There is no money in documentary.

>> Tiffany Bartok: I mean, we're paying to do our jobs, people. I think I'm.

>> Speaker B: I'm down to, like, maybe less than a penny an hour on. On. You know what I'm. It's like, yeah, yeah, you do it for the love. Look, we're. We're blessed to be able to do it. And I'm not saying, like, yes, I did get a salary for doing this, and of course, yes, I want it.

There's a crisis right now in independent documentary and for independent films

You know, there's a crisis right now in independent documentary and for independent films, and they're not being. There's a, you know, they're not being bought as much as they were years ago. And so that's kind of what I mean. I want to share this with the world. It's not about, you know, selling it.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Oh, my God. I know, I know.

>> Speaker B: A life, you know, I know. I think, you know, it's really weird. It's like the disconnect. Because people want to see this. Women want to see this film.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Absolutely.

>> Speaker B: And it's really cool, too, because it, like, it shatters party lines. I think this speaks to women on both sides of conservative and liberal women. And how many films do that? Like, it. It's. It's really rare. and it has, like, I could tell by the audience members where we've screened and, you know, I think that that's what our game plan is now. Just, like, sharing it. Just getting it out there so that. So that the powers that be know that they'll have an audience that there. There is a big audience.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Absolutely.

>> Speaker B: So.

>> Tiffany Bartok: So you find that that's the most important thing to express so that people. Because that's the number one question always. Right? Like, who's this for? Who's this for? Right. And it's for everybo. Absolutely. I mean, I know my husband is like, he loves, like, women, and he's very interested in seeing women in power and how they got there. And that's rare. But, you know, he was riveted by the whole film.

>> Speaker B: I love it. I know. It's for.

>> Tiffany Bartok: It's for everybody.

>> Speaker B: It's for everybody. It's. It's for, you know, it. It that's what a good film is.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah.

>> Speaker B: Does it have, you know, we're a good film. You walk in and you're like, I'm not going to be into this subject. I don't want to watch this. And then like, oh, my God, I never thought I would. I would be into this subject.

>> Tiffany Bartok: You know, Best kind of review ever. Yeah, I did. My. Somebody dragged me kicking and screaming to this. And I'm so glad that they did. Yes, exactly.

>> Speaker B: Like, because it's just a good film is a good film. But yeah, I mean, if. If you get asked that question, it is women. Like, it's. It's women. And I can't believe women in their 20s and 30s are loving this film. Like, they love the nostalgia, they love the magazine aspect. They love, you know, they love a woman's story, a story of a strong woman. I mean, m. Look what we're, you know, look at what we're doing in society right now. So, yeah, I mean, I think it. I love that men are. That men are really, really. That it's speaking to men too. And I like, yeah, a lot of men have come up to me too, on the circuit or just.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Oh, that's cool.

>> Speaker B: Yeah.

The film looks at objectification and we really go hard into that

Like, this young guy was like, you know, I really. He was like in his 30s and he's like, it just makes me think differently. Like, you know, there's some scenes where we really look at objectification and we really go hard into that. Like, into, And the guy was like, yeah, it made me self reflect on am I. Have I done that or do I do that? And how can I be better? And that's also so amazing. So it's. It's really interesting because you're like, yeah, the fashion doc. So it's like, oh, we're not an issues doc because we're.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Oh my God. Fashion doc.

>> Speaker B: Like, you know, and it's like, oh.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah, it's a real issue, guys.

>> Speaker B: It's an issue, women's rights, women's empowerment, women's women working, you know, today. It's an issue like that.

>> Tiffany Bartok: That woman we all relate to. Yeah. 100%. It's like that this woman made the most money for this empire with this idea and didn't get the raise that she asked for. Is an issue. Yes.

>> Speaker B: And was told you have a husband.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Husband.

>> Speaker B: Why do you need. And I love that because in the film, people, there's a gasp and I'm like, this is awesome. Like, this is. That was like that one moment. I'm like, I hope this makes that impact. And. Yeah, that it should. And it does.

>> Tiffany Bartok: And it did.

>> Speaker B: And me and my husband, who's also like your husband, who like, loves this film and is all about the message. We like to squeeze each other's hats. You know, we're like, yes, yes, yes. But yeah, it's, it's, you know, we still deal with overt sexism, in daily dealings with some men and some men that we work for. And just in everyday life, like, you know, it could be someone like your gardener could be like any, Anyone. Yeah, that, you know, it's, it's interesting. Or like just calling to complain at like about a bill or something. And it's like sometimes I'm like, I put my husband on and it's. Sounds like a 1950s housewife.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Right.

>> Speaker B: Sucks. Because it's like, he's gonna get the.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Job done in your mind.

>> Speaker B: Yeah, they're gonna. I see them. Listen to. It's like, yeah, the job done. Right. Exactly. And it's kind of like Julie trying to figure that out. But she, she has the last laugh because she literally navigated it. She was tricky about it. She didn't care. She got it done and she gets the last laugh. It's pretty awesome.

>> Tiffany Bartok: What was the thing that she did where she, she pre edited the shoots right before she handed them in? Right.

>> Speaker B: It was, you know, really smart of her. Like, she, I mean, how strong and how badass do you have to be? that's pretty cool. Pretty cool. Like, she could have gotten fired for that. Like. Yeah, she took the shots out like that that were too gratuitous. She was like, no, if I put this in, they're gonna, they're gonna run it and I don't want a woman to look like that. And you know, and they were still very beautiful and sexy. It's not like the shots weren't, you know, gorgeous and sexy, but they weren't gratuitous.

>> Tiffany Bartok: No. Yeah.

>> Speaker B: You could show a woman's boobs or her breasts or bosoms. As Julie says. Bosom. I love that word. It's very. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Tiffany Bartok: very polite.

>> Speaker B: It's very polite. We should call them bosoms. but yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's. There's a fine line and that. There's so many, so many interesting conversations we could have about all of this, you know?

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yes, yes. Oh, well, I thank you so much for bringing this film to the world and for bringing Julie Campbell to the.

Look behind the Look premieres November 17th at DOC NYC

And everyone can see it November 17th at DOC NYC. And I'm going to the 415 screening. And there's many screenings to choose from, New Yorkers. And then do you know where it's going? Any other festivals on its way?

>> Speaker B: It's playing November 18th. Also Doc NYC at 12:30, in the afternoon. And then we're going to Hampton's Doc Fest.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Oh, nice.

>> Speaker B: Yeah. February. I mean, February. December 6th, Harbor. And now then we're just hope. Yeah, we have a bunch of winter festivals not yet announced yet.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Okay, we'll have to. So where will we find. We'll find out where those are on Instagram at Beyond the Gaze. Yeah.

>> Speaker B: Yeah. Or go to the website. Very easy. Julie campbell.com or beyond the gazefilm.com Instagram, Facebook. I'm posting way too much. You will find us.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Never apologize for. For over posting. When your film comes out, it's like, that's the baby. Everyone wants to know. And I always say, you should have this mentality of like, this is what I'm doing right now. Okay. This is. It'll be over. Everybody can look away if they want to, but this is what's happening right now.

>> Speaker B: I love that. That's great. It's such good advice.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Because you have permission.

>> Speaker B: January, I'll be sitting there. What can I post? There's nothing, you know, so I have to. I have to own it. I have to own this right now.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Absolutely. Absolutely. Celebrated. It's all happening. It's like.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Wait, I was going to ask you one more question about where it was going to be. Doc nyc. Oh, the sub stack. We can see your sub stack through your website, right? Yes, the link to that.

>> Speaker B: There's a link. Ooh, I've got to put my link on my website. Okay, good idea. Wow. I haven't done that yet, but yeah, I am posting weekly or bi weekly. I. I owe it a post and there's a lot I'm gonna share. I know some things might be a little controversial, but I have a lot of really fun ideas, that are on substack. Yeah.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Good, good, good. Okay, Well, I will definitely be staying tuned and I will be seeing you next Sunday.

>> Speaker B: I know. I'm so excited.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Thanks, Jill.

>> Speaker B: Thank you. This was so much fun.

>> Tiffany Bartok: look behind the look is a vinyl foot production written by me m your host, Tiffany Bartok. Produced by Jace Bartok Edited by Mugresh Takor. If you're interested in learning more, find our video version on the YouTube channel. Look behind the look podcast. There you can see rare photos and clips from our guests. And please, please follow us on Twitter ookbehindpod and Instagram ookbehindthelook. If you like the show, please rate, review and subscribe and tell your friends and spread the word. You can subscribe to us on itunes or any podcatcher of your choice. Thanks for listening. To look behind the Look.