Just How Relentless is Diane Warren?

Look behind the Look is a podcast that explores your favorite looks in film

>> Tiffany Bartok: Welcome to look behind the look, the celebrated podcast that explores your favorite looks in film, television and fashion history. Through conversations with the fashion world's elite and award winning hair, makeup and costume designers on sets around the world, you will see and hear exciting tales from behind the scenes, career origin stories and tons of advice and tips. I'm your host, Tiffany Bartok. Hello and welcome to look behind the Look. Diane Warren. Need I say more honestly that that's an alternative title for this great documentary? Diane Warren, Relentless. Diane Warren is a force to be reckoned with. She's an incredible songwriter. I'm not even going to get into her bio because if you are listening to this episode, you most likely know all of her accomplishments. But this documentary gives us a lot more than sort of a list of everything that she's done. And it is a deep look inside who she is as a woman and how she's sort of gotten her reputation of being difficult, which is, an interesting thing to explore. I love looking into why we just simply label artists as, being one way or being difficult. And that's sort of what Bess Kargman is explaining exploring in this film.

This week we have guest host Bess Kargman. Enjoy this episode with director Bess

we have a, we have a guest host again. this week we've been covering all the films, at DOC NYC that you guys are probably going to want to see this audience. And so I had to see films and wasn't, available when all these busy people were available at the exact same times. So I divided and conquered this week. And this is my husband, Jace Bartok, who edits a lot of the episodes. And now here he is on the other side. So he also loved the film. I've seen it, a couple times now. I saw it first at south by Southwest and now you can see it at, DocNYC and I really want you to check it out. I have all the information in the show notes, of course, and be sure to tell me, come back and tell me what you thought of the film. Enjoy this episode with director Bess Kargman.

>> Diane Warren: Don't come too far, you guys, because things get knocked over.

>> Diane Warren: This is so much stuff in here. This is 35 years of my life in here. But I like, I really like it and I love it in here.

>> Speaker D: It's superstition, isn't it? She can't change it in case she loses whatever magic happened in that room.

>> Diane Warren: I don't know if it's superstition or I just, I'm comfortable in here. This room basically bought my building. Maybe one song, who knows? Because there's some big hits that have been written in here.

>> Speaker D: She doesn't care what it looks like. She doesn't care if you think it's weird that it's a mess. She doesn't care that she's worth all this money. And she sits in this tiny little room writing her songs on an electric keyboard. And by the way, she still records her songs on cassette.

>> Diane Warren: Is each type of song just their ideas? Their ideas. I use my walkman or I record on my phone now, too, so I visually record stuff too. So I've moved beyond the cassette a little bit.

>> Jace Bartok: If you didn't know who she was, you would never guess that. That this person could write like that. Hey, Bess. How are you?

>> Bess Kargman: I'm well. How are you?

>> Jace Bartok: I'm good. I'm good.

Jace: I loved your movie. I saw it twice

welcome to look behind the Look. my name's Jace. I'm filling in for our lovely host Tiffany today. I, loved your movie. I saw it, twice. That's how much I loved it.

>> Bess Kargman: Oh, I'm so flattered. Thank you.

Bess Kargman directed Diane Warren Relentless

>> Jace Bartok: Yes, Bess, Kargman is with us. She directed Diane Warren Relentless, which is playing at Doc NYC this week. I saw it at south by Southwest, and I just fell in love with the film. it was so unexpected. It took me to places that I didn't think it was going to go. And, it's just a pleasure to talk to you about it. so tell me, why Diane Warren? Why a dock on Diane?

>> Bess Kargman: So I was actually really surprised to find out a documentary had not been made about her yet.

>> Jace Bartok: Right.

>> Bess Kargman: She is such an amazing character. Like a fascinating character study. But her, you know, one Wikipedia search of her name, she has such an incredible body of work. So I was so pleasantly surprised that no one had made a film about her. And so, I really vibe for the chance to direct it. You know, there were other directors in the mix.

>> Jace Bartok: Wow. What was that? Must have been. We can talk about that another time. But that must have been crazy.

>> Bess Kargman: I just felt like this has to be mine. Sometimes I feel that way about films, and the feeling I usually get is how this is so crazy, make me sound like a lunatic, but how devastated will I be if I don't direct this documentary? And if it's kind of. Kind of sad, I'd be, like, kind of bummed, then I know the film's not for me. But if I would be just, like, full body rage that the film wasn't mine, then I knew that I had to direct the film. So, that I felt like I would be quite upset. I love another director had gotten the film. So I really did buy for it, you know, fought to direct it and it wasn't easy. You know, we started filming about three years ago and that was still Covid. You know, that was our first shoot. We weren't even like allowed to get too close to her. You know, it was pre vaccination, ah, time. So, it started out tough to really like, earn her trust. And that's a huge process that I go through as a director.

>> Jace Bartok: Right.

>> Bess Kargman: But once I did earn that trust, you know, once we all got vaccinated and once sort of the masks came off, then it was like, green light, let's do this.

>> Jace Bartok: I love the intimacy that you had with her. And I love that story, by the way, about how crushed you're going to be. Because it reminds me kind of the theme of the film of Diane's kind of relentless pursuit. So she clearly registered that within you.

>> Jace Bartok: I love that scene where she looks at like a Billboard top 10 or like the best songwriters in history. And she of course is on there, but she's like the only woman on there. And I just found that, like, very fascinating the way that she processes it, that, you know, Carole, AH King and like all these other pioneering songwriting women aren't on there. And to me, she is such a trailblazer. I found the film unexpected. I love the way that you used kind of the Oscar quest as kind of like an arc through the film and her cat passing away. And then how difficult was it to withhold the fact that she had been molested till later in the film? Was there pressure to sort of put that earlier in the film?

>> Bess Kargman: I always really try to be accurate to someone's true character. And so when she and I talked about her molestation, it was very clear that she doesn't feel it defines her.

>> Bess Kargman: And there was one fascinating review about the film that this guy said, you know, maybe we buried the lead by not sort of starting early on with her molestation. And I, thought to myself, like, you. You didn't get.

>> Jace Bartok: You did.

>> Bess Kargman: You don't get her. She's not defined by her molestation. She's not even defined by her Asperger's. So what we did was we gave everything its proportion in the film. So her Asperger's is part of who she is. Her molestation is something that did impact her and still, you know, it doesn't define her. Right. So why I would Ever lead the film with that, when it's a film about so many other things, is a mystery to me. So when something doesn't define you, you can't start with it in a movie. And I love that. Yeah. And it's linked, you know, we take everything inside of us and use it to express ourselves. So I wouldn't have even gone into a molestation if it wasn't directly linked to a song of hers, you know, because then it makes it create so much more meaning to her personal story.

>> Jace Bartok: I loved it because it was you know, like the onion unfolding. Right. You know, and. And you're. You're making all these connections in real time and I love that its revelation. It like brought Diane's character and her reason and her motives and her songwriting and her like the fact that she's this badass and writes these like the quintessential love songs. It brought it all together in this beautiful place in the film. And I really like that. That. And I'm sure like what you said about burying the lead, I'm sure there was pressure to go with like, go with that. But I loved your answer about not when it. When something doesn't define someone. Not like that. Like why is that in the story? It doesn't define them. I'm just putting this in there for you and your sort of like what you think is prurient or interesting or. Right. So, I really like that answer.

What was it like interviewing Cher? We. We made a film on Kevin Aucoin

What was it like interviewing Cher? We. We made a film on Kevin Aucoin and we interviewed Cher. And I have some crazy stories I won't go into now. She was amazing. Blew my mind. Never forget it. What was it like interviewing Cherry?

>> Bess Kargman: So I've interviewed a million celebrities, so they don't. I don't get star struck. So I sit down to interview, share and the first thing I observed is. I know this sounds crazy, but like she's much m. More beautiful than I had anticipated. That sounds like so rude. Like a bad.

>> Jace Bartok: No, I know what you're saying. Yeah.

>> Bess Kargman: But she's actually really strikingly attractive. Like even, you know, even you know, at 7am in the morning alone in her bathrobe. She's a beautiful creature. So that was the first observation which of course like I wasn't gonna be a sycophant and tell her, but I just thought to myself like, wow, you are very attractive. You know, you sometimes like behind the glam, there are people who it's.

>> Jace Bartok: Yeah.

>> Bess Kargman: More of like to quote, the film Clueless like it's like a Monet, you know, when you get up close. So she was very beautiful and then she was so humble and funny and irreverent and I wasn't sure whether she would down. Would be down for my idea to give Diana ring and have them interact over the phone. And it was just this hilarious moment. You know, this little bell goes off in my head when I'm. This verite scene is unfolding and they're having this hilarious banter between them. And Diane's like, I was right. And they're swearing involved and Diane, you know, chairs rolling her eyes when a little bell goes off like ding, ding, ding. This is making it into the, into the film. It's so great.

>> Jace Bartok: Right?

>> Bess Kargman: So yeah, I was, I just, I thought Cher was so awesomely normal. Just normal and funny and self deprecating and sort of down for anything. you know, we, I had a time limit with her and she, you know, I said we're, you know, we're nearing our time limit. She like, I'll tell you when I'm finished. Right, let's keep going. You know. So, she. Yeah, she was super chill.

>> Jace Bartok: That's really funny. I remember we had a timeline with her too and she kept going because she loved Kevin Aucoin. And I remember like having to look at the monitor as the producer and be like, you look great Cher. And I was like, I just said you look great Cher. Because like she looks great. And I remember we finished and she comes over and she's like, hey, where are you guys going after this? And I was like, I don't know, you know what I mean? Like, and I often think like, what if I had said do you want to get a bite? You know, oh man, what is it like returning to DOC nyc? I noticed your first film was there, which I'm excited to see. First position. and you've got like a sports kind of angle. I saw, I read that you played hockey and you have like. Right, you have like a sports background. What was is it like returning to Doc nyc? you know, with this film when your first film was there.

>> Bess Kargman: I love, love, love, love, love Doc nyc. I wanted this to be our New York premiere. it's such an amazing festival for film lovers. I was so thrilled to premiere my first film. have the New York premiere be at DACA nyc. Yeah, you know, first positions New York premiere was there and I really think this is going to be an exciting new York premiere.

What was the hardest thing about making this film

>> Jace Bartok: What was the hardest thing about making this film.

>> Bess Kargman: The hardest thing about making this film, it's a no brainer. The hardest thing about making this film was starting to film during the height of COVID you know, it's been over three years now. And not really being able to interact with her very closely and earn her trust. There was a moment where she was making really funny jokes and you know, I was trying to smize under the mask and she, you know, whispered to someone like, she doesn't get me. She doesn't laugh at any of my jokes. I'm laughing, I'm laughing, I'm loving what she's giving me. But no one wants to hear the director laughing behind the camera, you know, so she wasn't getting the feedback from me that she was looking for, nor was she feeling sort of like we were creating this working relationship.

>> Bess Kargman: so at first it was kind of going downhill the first couple weeks and then I had dinner with her without a mask. We realized we really get each other. And I don't ever become friends with the subjects in my movies maybe till after the film is finished because I don't want to become biased.

>> Bess Kargman: Maybe start to edit my questions or edit the film in a way where I don't want to show warts and all of my friend. Right. So I always kept it really professional with her. But I, I did enough to really earn her trust and to show her parts of me to get her to really open up.

>> Jace Bartok: That I feel like that is the hardest thing. the normal host of this show, Tiffany, is my wife and partner and she's a doc filmmaker and I watch her interview people. And it is such a skill. Right. And that trust level like nobody understands, especially a woman director and a subject. And like the countless hours like you know, there's always the producers that are like where's the cut? And, and blah, blah, blah. And then no one really understands like how much time and effort and energy goes into getting your subjects trust. Especially somebody like Dian Diane who's like, like a badass. Like I can't even understand when you, you know, you guys are driving around and she's going to the child at home in the shed and just like she seems like a very private person, you know, and what she does in writing songs is this beautiful like you said earlier or you said so beautifully in the film. It's like this channeling of all of this unspoken things and kind of a private person's life. so I, I totally understand like the fear of like she. Oh, oh my God. She's not getting me and you totally freaking out. What is. And I'm sure you asked this all the time.

>> Bess Kargman: Well, what's interesting is I wasn't freaking out, because I knew I could win her over.

>> Jace Bartok: Right.

>> Bess Kargman: Or, not win her over. The way I would describe it is that she feels like she's in a safe environment around me.

>> Jace Bartok: Yeah.

>> Bess Kargman: Where I'm going to do her story justice.

>> Jace Bartok: Right.

>> Bess Kargman: But here's the other layer with her. She gets extreme anxiety when she's away too long for her music writing. To the point where she will say she's giving us three hours of her time and then suddenly she disappears after two hours. I'm not kidding.

>> Jace Bartok: Wow.

>> Bess Kargman: And she's not being rude. Like she's not trying to be difficult. It's this like, compulsion from within and it's this need for her to quell her anxiety.

>> Bess Kargman: When she's not writing her music.

>> Jace Bartok: Right.

>> Bess Kargman: So, we had to completely restructure the way our shoot days were to protect the, the. The outline of the day so that if Diane disappeared, which happened often, we'd still have other things to film.

>> Jace Bartok: Isn't that.

>> Bess Kargman: You asked what, what are some difficult things? That was a challenge I did not anticipate.

>> Jace Bartok: That is really, really fascinating and like, so, so interesting. I know we have to wrap up. What are there plans that my listeners. Our listeners can see the film. I know they will love this film. It is so wonderful. I got sucked in the second time. Are.

Diane Warren: We have very exciting distribution plans for Relentless

Do you guys have any distribution plans you can talk about? Are you looking for distributor? Yeah. Okay, what is it?

>> Bess Kargman: We have very exciting distribution plans. So after DOC NYC on the 18th and 19th of November, not only are we continuing to do a film festival tour, but our film comes out in theaters January 10th, so it will be in a bunch of cities January 10th. And then a week later on the 16th, it premieres. You can screen it anytime you want on Masterclass, which even provides one month free. So, it will be totally accessible on Masterclass. It's going to be. It's one of their first films documentaries ever. They're branching out into, documentaries.

>> Jace Bartok: Isn't that amazing? I saw their name in the opening credits and I don't think I had seen it. Maybe it was there at south by Southwest, but I was like, M. Masterclass makes total sense because the film is like a masterclass in songwriting and all the things that make up. Diane. Bess, thank you so much. It's real pleasure. I really, truly enjoyed the film. I found myself, like, getting choked up, like, again. I don't know why. When the cat passed away, like, what the hell's wrong with me? Yes, that's what we're like. I went through this once before. but, yeah, she's so talented. Such incredible songs. I love, I love the whole Aerosmith storyline. And she gets to be. She's geeking out and she gets to, of course, when she wins the Oscar, so incredible, so triumphant. But I will let you go to your next interview. And Bess, thank you so much. The film is Diane Warren, Relentless with our director, Bess, Kargman. And thanks. I look forward to seeing your next.

>> Bess Kargman: Movie for the best. Thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Look behind the look is a vinyl foot production written by Tiffany Bartok

>> Tiffany Bartok: Look behind the look is a vinyl foot production written by me, your host, Tiffany Bartok. Produced by Jace Bartok. Edited by Mugresh Thakur. If you're interested in learning more, find our video version on the YouTube channel look behind the look podcast. There you can see rare photos and clips from our guests and please follow us on Twitter UKBehindPod and Instagram ookbehindthelook. If you like the show, please rate, review and subscribe and tell your friends and spread the word. You can subscribe to us on itunes or any podcaster of your choice. Thanks for listening to look behind the Look.