The Substance Hair Designer Frédérique Arguello Talks About Her Work... And That Oscar Plot Twist

>> Tiffany Bartok: Hi, everybody. I wanted, to jump on here really quickly and just tell you about today's episode that you're going to be watching, because you might think we've already covered the substance. We absolutely had an interview already, about the substance and the work on the substance. We've seen the film, win an Oscar. The and makeup team won the Oscar and the BAFTA for their amazing work on this film. but if you noticed for the Oscar, there was someone missing from the, podium when the award was accepted, that was at the BAFTA Awards. So that person was the artist, Frederique Aguello. And I just wanted to look further into it and see, because I've always wondered about the four names versus three names, how they pick the names. And so I asked Frederique to come on the show and explain a little bit to me about what happened this year, with that particular scenario. And, she had a lot to say about explaining how the whole process worked for her this time. And I really, really, really thought it was important to bring that story to you all because it's kind of interesting and sort of one of those stories that makes you go, hm, interesting. What happened here? So we are, going to listen to Frederique's side of things today and I thought that it was a very interesting way that, everything happened and possibly you all will too. I also wanted to add a little bit that. That part of the conversation happens after she talks about her work. So that part of the conversation about the logistics of the Oscars, the submission of the names, that all comes in the second half of the interview. In the first half, we talk about, obviously her work and inspiration, some of the things that we haven't talked about on here, like why the coat was yellow. I wanted to ask someone who was on set themselves about, the coat being yellow. And the answer is quite interesting. You may already know it, but, I didn't. So. And then after our interview, Fred sent over some images that, I wanted to include, but I wanted to just put them in the front here, because I didn't want to stop the interview and insert them. But it was an afterthought after the interview had already commenced. So I just wanted to mention that for Margaret Qualley's look, the inspiration was folktale and the Raphaelite movement, for the hair story and the storytelling with her beautiful, long, voluptuous hair. And also, she also wanted to make a point that Brigitte Bardot was, of course, an inspiration Always. Isn't Brigitte Bardot always an inspiration? It's on everybody's wall. But in this case I can really see the inspiration played out in Margaret Qualley's hair. So I just wanted to let you in on that because a couple of times we just changed the subject to Demi or something like that and we forgot to get, I forgot to get back to the inspiration, for Margaret's. Margaret's hair. So enjoy the interview. There's a lot to be learned and heard in this interview. I won't say much else. And we'll hear, we'll listen to Fred's story.

In France we do not have the union as makeup and hair do

Okay. Hello, I am with Frederique and we are talking about the substance today. And Fred, would you like to introduce yourself to the listeners and the position that you had on the substance?

>> Frederique Aguello: Yes, of course. Hello Tiffany.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Hi.

>> Frederique Aguello: It's a pleasure being here with you.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Really, this is such a pleasure. I've been wanting to speak to you ever since I saw the film and you know that was in October and it's had such a huge impact and so I, I'm so anxious to speak to you about all of your award winning work. So so why don't you let me know, let me know the position that you had on the film.

>> Frederique Aguello: I was the hair designer. Hair designer. Stephanie Guillaume is the makeup. Liner. And Pierre Olivier person is the SFX designer.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yes. Okay. And then how did you. In France. In France, remind me, does it. Do you join a union as makeup and hair or do you. I'm just curious. No. Okay. Specific.

>> Frederique Aguello: Yeah. Actually it's very interesting. It's a very good question. Because in France we do not have the union.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Uh-huh.

>> Frederique Aguello: Jobs. And this is why maybe sometimes we have little problems. Uh-huh.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Uh-huh.

>> Frederique Aguello: As far as credits go, So, we're working on it. Some people are working on it right now. But it's not as you have it in, in the US or even in England I'm sure you know.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Right.

>> Frederique Aguello: Causing, it's causing problems a lot of times.

>> Tiffany Bartok: So it's different than England as well, I think.

>> Frederique Aguello: So I think they do have a union.

>> Tiffany Bartok: It's

>> Frederique Aguello: More a pyramidal thing. in England and also in, in the US Because I have worked in the US And I have worked with a, American, teams and it's a more like a pyramidal thing where you respect you know, you just respect the, the person who's on, on the top and she, she has her makeup and sometimes her hair team. And there's different ways of working around it, but in France you only do hair or you only do makeup.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Okay. Okay. That's how it is here too.

Production assigns Key Hair title on Substance; you didn't notice mistake

Okay, so, so who, and, and who assigns that? you know, when you sign up, you apply as that or they assign you as that?

>> Frederique Aguello: the production.

>> Tiffany Bartok: The production assigns you that title?

>> Frederique Aguello: Yeah. Yeah. Actually on, on the, the credit on, the Substance, I got, Key Hair.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah.

>> Frederique Aguello: Which, which I spoke to some people in, in the US and they said that Key Hair is not really the head of department of hair.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Right.

>> Frederique Aguello: I should have had. Okay. Or the hair designer. So this is, this is a mistake which,

>> Tiffany Bartok: I understand. Okay, so when did. And you didn't notice this mistake until the credits rolled?

>> Frederique Aguello: Oh, nobody ever asked me or anything. Yeah, I just, saw it as I saw the movie at the end. Yeah.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Okay. Okay. Oh, wow. That's very.

>> Frederique Aguello: Wow. This is why there's like, actually five or six key hair.

>> Tiffany Bartok: That's very interesting. Okay. Okay.

On your hair team, it was a very small team

Okay, so, so now, so for the substance, who was on the team on your hair team?

>> Frederique Aguello: Okay. On my hair team, it was, ah, my. It was a very small team. It was myself, as the hair designer and the key designer on set. Because I'm not only the designer. I worked on set.

>> Frederique Aguello: All the time. And there was Marilyn scarcely.

>> Frederique Aguello: She started out as my assistant. And I had to leave actually the movie five months, five and a half months after I started. There was only a month left. So she took over.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Got it.

>> Frederique Aguello: Continuity, which I had put in place. yes, I had a family, problems. I actually, my, My father passed away.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Oh, I'm so sorry. Oh, I'm sorry about that.

>> Frederique Aguello: Unfortunately, when it happens when you're working on the movie, it's. It's terrible. Of course, working so hard on the movie, you don't get a chance to see your family. And so that was devastating to me. So I did leave the movie a, few weeks before the end.

>> Tiffany Bartok: But the looks had already been set and you had already. Yes. So she's your assistant then maintained the, looks. Got it. Okay.

>> Frederique Aguello: Just maintain everything. I did the looks and also, the continuity from the sequence we had already done, months before and we were shooting, the sequence after that, you know, a few months afterwards. So, everything was, was done.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Understood. Yes, that's what I understood to be the case when I spoke to Marlon. Marilyn, I'm so the worst accent ever. Oh my God. But I did speak to her Maybe the day before the Oscars. And she. She let me know there were some things. There were some things that I was dying to speak to you about, after I spoke with her, because I think she mentioned that she was on day, that, Demi was doing my very favorite scene, but. But, she did not do the hair that day of when she is wiping the.

I wanted to ask you about what it was like on set that day

I wanted to ask you about what it was like on set that day when she was doing my very favorite scene of get preparing for the date, which nearly broke me. It was amazing. It was so good.

>> Frederique Aguello: when I. When she. When she did that scene, I knew it was going to be just, a scene that people would remember forever.

>> Tiffany Bartok: You knew? You knew?

>> Frederique Aguello: I knew it. I knew. I even told her. I said, oh, my God, that was so good. Yeah. And, So how was it? Well, it was very intense, as you can imagine. But the whole movie was very intense.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Sure. Yes.

Tell me what the days were like on this, um. Amazing. It was very intense. At the same time, uh, fun

Tell me what the days were like on this,

>> Frederique Aguello: Amazing. M. It was very intense. It was very, But at the same time, so. So, so fun. Intense. Fun. serious. At the same time, because it was a small crew.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah. To be clear, did Demi and Margaret have personals or did you do. Yeah. Okay, good. Okay.

When I first read the script, I thought it was amazing

Okay, so when you were designing these looks for these two women, what were you keeping in mind about the differences between the two? What would represent youth to you in the looks that you designed?

>> Frederique Aguello: Okay, so that's an interesting question, actually. When I first read the script, I thought it was. I thought it was amazing. Yeah, the script. I just couldn't let drop it. I was like, I've been in the business for, like, 30 years, and it's really, the first time I read a script. And I really. I just wanted to do this movie. I wanted to do this movie.

>> Tiffany Bartok: And did it arrive. Did the script arrive to you through your agency, or did you know somebody on production?

>> Frederique Aguello: No, I knew somebody on production. Assistant, actually, spoke, to Coralie about me. We had just done a movie right before that. So, and then I spoke to Coralie on the. On the Zoom, just like we're doing right now. and it clicked. You know, we really had the same, The same idea about what we wanted to. Well, we just felt it, you know? Yeah, we felt it. I also told her that I had lived in Los Angeles when I was young, when I was a teenager, so she kind of liked that for some reason. And, anyway, going back to the script, when I read it, I just thought it was just so intense. for me as a woman, the age I have, I understood that so well. Yeah, okay. But not only that, I just thought, It was just so graphic in my head.

>> Tiffany Bartok: You could see everything.

>> Frederique Aguello: I could see everything. And there's not too many, words, in this movie. It's a lot of images.

>> Frederique Aguello: So I just saw them and I just went, oh, wow. And as I was reading it, reading it, and by the end you're like, oh, my God.

>> Tiffany Bartok: I know. But having lived in la, you could bring that, the thirst for youth too. I mean, in LA and New York, it's just, you know, those are the two places where people are chasing youth so feverishly. Is that culture the same in France? Do you see, do you see it there as well?

>> Frederique Aguello: It's the same because, actually we. We follow you.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Got it.

>> Frederique Aguello: We follow what you do.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Got it.

>> Frederique Aguello: But it's less.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah, yeah, of course. Less impre. less pressure and less probably monetary value on youth. Maybe.

>> Frederique Aguello: you know, I think it's like this everywhere, unfortunately.

>> Tiffany Bartok: You know, it really is.

>> Frederique Aguello: But hopefully it might change. Go back to something more. I don't know.

>> Tiffany Bartok: I'm hopeful, I'm hopeful.

>> Frederique Aguello: I'm hopeful because maybe I, I knew a, generation where it wasn't, as, you know, so important. So maybe I, I hope it's gonna. But maybe not. Who knows what's gonna happen in the next future.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Right.

Long hair or long black hair was just perfect for, for the movie

And so, so how did you develop the looks for, Margaret? For who? She was going to be with Stephanie. And how did that work with,

>> Frederique Aguello: Yeah, so, first of all, for Demi, she has lovely hair. Okay. Long hair or long black hair was just so perfect for, for the movie.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah.

>> Frederique Aguello: because I saw images, I saw graphic images. I knew there was going to be a lot of, takes in the white, bathroom.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yes.

>> Frederique Aguello: Tiles in the bathroom. And I just told myself, we have to keep a hair long and black, you know, especially to cover her body. And at first, Demi wasn't really too sure about keeping your hair that long.

>> Tiffany Bartok: No.

>> Frederique Aguello: Which I can understand. You know, she wanted to change, you know, she wanted to have bangs, you know, and.

>> Tiffany Bartok: And every woman wants bangs. I just. Nature's Botox. Yes.

>> Frederique Aguello: Maybe, you know, little layered, you know, cut. And. And I was like, oh. I was in between her and Coralie, who agreed with me that we needed to keep that hair long. It would be so dramatic.

>> Tiffany Bartok: So severe.

>> Frederique Aguello: Yeah, dramatic, you know, when she falls on the floor and. And there was. There's a lot of movements in this movie, when they're fighting.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yes.

>> Frederique Aguello: Hair just flows. It flows. It had to, you know. So, finally she agreed upon keeping her hair, like this, like the way.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yay.

>> Frederique Aguello: And, and I'm glad we, we did. I'm very glad we did. And on top of this, there was so much work as far as, prosthetics went. And also there was a lot of close ups, you know, so if we had put a bang, it would be a fake, ah, fringe. It would be all fake and it would be just too much problems because especially when she's like in the, in the bathroom, the light is very harsh. There's a lot of close ups. So, and we didn't have time, right, to just come back and do touch ups. And, and even though we still ah, are very, it's very. You always have to look at the hair continuity because even if it's moving and you feel like you're not doing anything, you're. It's, it's actually the, the, the worst thing as a hairstylist because the hair moves all the time. So from an image to another image, you have to really be careful whether the piece of hair is here and not in back. And it seems easy, but actually it's the hardest thing to do, I'm sure.

Was Margaret's new hair all natural throughout the production? You mean natural

>> Tiffany Bartok: And was her new hair all natural throughout the production?

>> Frederique Aguello: no, actually. You mean natural. You mean as far as, her.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Own, her own hair?

>> Frederique Aguello: Yeah, yeah, she's got, yeah, she's got great hair.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Wow.

>> Frederique Aguello: Yeah, I just styled it differently as she's aging, you know, at first she's got beautiful, shiny long black hair, healthy looking. And then, as she's aging, you know, her hair gets brittle, it gets kind of fuzzy and.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Frederique Aguello: And then we get to that stage where she, she loses it from long to, to the, to the, to the wig part, the gray.

>> Tiffany Bartok: And when you, when it had to go into, caps and into prosthetics, did she cut her hair or did you lay it in under there?

>> Frederique Aguello: Yeah, no, no, we had to we had to flatten it. Just like what you would do, like, a wrap, you know? Yep, just like a wrap. You know, you have to go slow. You just have to do like a few braids and just wrap it around your head. and then put the wig on. And then, at the groom stage, then just a braid in the back following, the neck and the back, you know, put aloe vera and just, you know, put like a few pins and make it really flat and then you have to put a cap on it. And that's it.

>> Tiffany Bartok: At the Golem stage. The. Yeah, that's what you called that. And then is. Is that is Gollum stage. When she curls the one. The one hair which is.

>> Frederique Aguello: No, actually it's. It's, it is a bit. That curls her hair when she goes out. Yes.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Okay. Yes, yes, yes, yes. It's been a minute.

>> Frederique Aguello: I remember the. I remember what you call the girl that does the prop. You know, she was like asking me what. What kind of iron should I get?

>> Tiffany Bartok: The prop girl. Yeah.

>> Frederique Aguello: Because she's the one who bought the. You know that.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yes, of course, of course, of course. Oh my God. yes. And. And for Margaret's youthful hair, you just had to make sure that it was bouncy and full and hydrated and youthful.

>> Frederique Aguello: It was, it was. Yeah, it was. So it's all fake. Okay. Oh, yeah.

>> Tiffany Bartok: It did not look fake at all.

>> Frederique Aguello: I'm very. I'm very.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yes, yes. How did you do it?

>> Frederique Aguello: Actually, a hair length was about, a, bob length, longer than a bob. And she's got very curly hair. Beautiful, but curly does.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah.

>> Frederique Aguello: And, Coralie wanted, the hair to be very long, very healthy looking, very feminine looking because we wanted, you know, this woman to just be like a gorgeous, gorgeous body, gorgeous hair, gorgeous everything. So, at first they were asking me about maybe getting a wig for her.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Okay.

>> Frederique Aguello: And I, thought that a wig wouldn't do it because again, there's a lot of movement in the movie. she's fighting. She, she, ah. When she comes out of Demi, she's got wet hair. So a wig wouldn't fit. I don't know.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah.

>> Frederique Aguello: So, I proposed to, to use, hair pieces. Okay. Like about, about 30 hair pieces.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Extensions.

>> Frederique Aguello: Extensions. Which I would remove every night.

>> Tiffany Bartok: 30?

>> Frederique Aguello: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, she wasn't. It was kind of heavy because it was. There was a lot of hair.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah.

>> Frederique Aguello: So we wanted her to feel comfortable. So we were adding it. Adding her those, those, hair pieces and removing it every night. So we had to. Well, every day I had to, ah, ah, blow dry your hair, straighten her hair, and then add the hair pieces at different places.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Oh, my God.

>> Frederique Aguello: Depending on what sequence we were doing.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Right, of course. Because it changed so drastically.

>> Frederique Aguello: Right. Because sometimes the sequence, you know, sometimes we had a wet hair. So we had to add on.

We had to put gel on the hair to make it look wet

We had to put gel on the hair to make it look wet. And And then once we put the Pieces on. I had to style it again.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Right, right.

>> Frederique Aguello: Really natural and floating around. You know, the apartment when she was moving. You had to bounce and look really healthy.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah.

>> Frederique Aguello: Wig. I don't think it would have looked as natural.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Right. And. And what was more budgetary? the wig or the. Or the, extensions? Was it a big difference in money?

>> Frederique Aguello: no, actually, we had. We. We had a low budget for hair.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Imagine that. Imagine that.

>> Frederique Aguello: but, I think that it was, Actually, I worked on the hair pieces myself. Right. Like, them. I sewed them myself. And,

>> Tiffany Bartok: Wow.

>> Frederique Aguello: So it wasn't, At the end, it wasn't that expensive production.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah. And. And they were your own, and you. You treated them and. Uh-huh. You're like, wait a minute, wait a minute. I saved you guys a lot of money.

>> Frederique Aguello: I did.

>> Tiffany Bartok: You have to send, Send, send that invoice over.

>> Frederique Aguello: But at the same time, ah. I really thought it was the best thing to. To. To do, for. For what we wanted.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yes. Yeah.

>> Frederique Aguello: In the image.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yes. You make those decisions for the good of the film. And it definitely, definitely paid off. So. But in the end, was Margaret comfortable or was it awful? Was it. Was it. I, know she didn't complain, but, like, it had.

>> Frederique Aguello: No, she never complained. She was. They both never complained.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Oh, wow.

>> Frederique Aguello: And, no, at first. Maybe the first day. The first tryout, there was. It was. It was gorgeous, but maybe it was a little too heavy, so I removed where it was. It was fine.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Okay. That's very kind of you.

>> Frederique Aguello: First, you know, it was like, oh, this is. We got to. After a day or two, we finally got it. Yeah.

Can you tell me how she came out? Like, I've seen it in BTS

>> Tiffany Bartok: Can you tell me how she came out? Like, I've seen it, of course, in the BTS and everything. But how was that for you, the first time you saw her come out of the body? That's a. Obviously a prosthetic body. It's not to me, but you know, how. What did you have to keep in mind? That's when you used all the gel and. And, Okay. Okay. And that was on those extensions. So you had to maintain the extensions and then treat them as if she's coming. Okay.

>> Frederique Aguello: Right. And, as the hair was wet with all that gel, always had to be careful that you wouldn't see that there were extensions.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah, yeah.

>> Frederique Aguello: Make sure that you don't. Extensions.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Stressful.

>> Frederique Aguello: Especially when the camera is right here.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yes, yes. And then you can't say, oh, can I just step in really quickly?

>> Frederique Aguello: I know you're creating, but most of the time, you, you don't you want to avoid that?

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah.

>> Frederique Aguello: Behind the camera you're just like this.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah, yeah. Not breathing.

What was the most challenging day for you? What was the day where you were going

What was the most challenging day for you? What was the day where you were going like this?

>> Frederique Aguello: The most, the most challenging day, I think was when she fights. When she fight with Demi.

>> Tiffany Bartok: How many days was that? One day?

>> Frederique Aguello: No, I think we did it on two days, I think, because she, she gets blood, you know, as she's hitting her. There's blood. I don't know if you remember. There's a lot of blood.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Frederique Aguello: And there's blood. And then. So sometimes we had to go back to the seat the beginning of the sequence. So I had to really remove, the blood. Ah, dry it. But all this really fast, like, you know, like in six minutes, you know.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Unbelievable. I was speaking to the team, behind Nosferatu, and they said that was the most challenging for them to, you know, the buckets of blood and then having to keep. You have to maintain these expensive pieces of hair and, you know.

>> Frederique Aguello: Right.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Oh my God. So you had to wash them and then put them. 6.

>> Frederique Aguello: Yeah, you have to wash them. But, but the. What is the hardest thing to do is that you have to reuse, them like right away, like in the next five, six minutes. So, so that's when you really have to be, really fast.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yes, yes, yes. And what was the most satisfying day for you where you were like, oh, we nailed that. That's exactly what I envisioned.

>> Frederique Aguello: And, and I think, I think it's on the tryouts. I think, you know, we had two days of tryouts where, that's when you really, you know, that's when the, the clothes designer, Emanuel, which did. She did a great job also, because there's just little pieces. But everybody just remembers, you know, that yellow coat. I mean, everybody remembers that leotard. Yeah, everybody. You know, and that's really special when you just remember like, just one, one clothes, one piece of.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Clothes once, right when the yellow coat was discovered and you all were, on set. Now that yellow coat means something to everybody. Every woman. I. And everybody has an interpretation. And I've always wanted to ask someone who was there, what did that mean to Demi, to the whole project? What did, what was it? What were you saying by using that yellow coat?

>> Frederique Aguello: I think from what I heard, I don't know if it's, I don't know if it's a, Coralie Farja's idea. Or if it's Emmanuel's idea. But I think it reminds us of the egg in the beginning. The two, Yellow egg. Yolk.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yes.

>> Frederique Aguello: I don't know if you remember, there's like yolk and there's a needle that grabs.

>> Tiffany Bartok: yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay, thank you.

There's a lot of symbolism in this, uh, in this movie actually

>> Frederique Aguello: There's a lot of symbolism in this, in this movie actually.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Amazing symbolism. Here we are, we have completed the film and it comes out. It's an overwhelming success. And I asked you earlier if you knew it would be a success and you said you did. Yeah. And how did you know that people would respond to this body horror and you know, all of these gross things?

>> Frederique Aguello: Actually, first of all, when I read it, I thought it was great and I knew we were doing, you know, like when you, when you're doing something and you know it will stay in time, it's gonna be a cult movie. It's really. I felt it. I knew it was gonna be a cult movie because I think it's like, it's an inverted fairy tale, you know. Yes. For adults. Just like, you know, like grown up children and children. You know, we read fairy tales to children because, to protect them from, what happens in society. to protect them from danger. And sometimes, sometimes it's kind of spooky, sometimes it's scary and it's. It's like a fairy tale for adults, actually. That's how I see it.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah. Like a Grim's Grimm's fairy tale. Yes, yes. Babel.

>> Frederique Aguello: And there's a moral at the end.

>> Tiffany Bartok: 100.

>> Frederique Aguello: it reminds me a lot about those fairy tales, you know, what women inflict to, to themselves or to each other.

>> Tiffany Bartok: To each other.

>> Frederique Aguello: I don't know if you notice, but sometimes in fairy tales it's not the men that are mean to women, it's women against women.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Snow White. Yeah. Like my God.

>> Frederique Aguello: Cinderella. Yes. Rapinil. Did you say rap?

>> Tiffany Bartok: Rapunzel.

>> Frederique Aguello: Rapunzel.

>> Frederique Aguello: Usually true. well, I made the connection. I thought it was exactly the same, you know?

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yes, yes, yes, absolutely.

>> Frederique Aguello: Always like the youth, not the youth against the womb. That, that's age. But it's usually the aged woman that's very jealous of the young one, you know? I don't know, it's. I don't know why fairy tales are like that. Always depicting women, you know, like being, jealous of each other maybe. You know, I mean, if the fairy.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Tale definitely continued when Demi lost the Oscar to a much younger.

>> Frederique Aguello: Yeah.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah, Much younger woman playing, you know, who, you know, also exposed much of her body. You know, both, both women exposed themselves completely. Right. To me and Mickey and you know, the younger bot. I mean that's just my take. the one body, you know, was rewarded. But anyway, the I, I, I think honestly once she can, Demi can like get distance. I don't know how she feels of course about that loss, but like the symbolism of that loss was greater than the win almost. You know what I mean? That, that lesson, it says a lot. Yeah.

>> Frederique Aguello: Symbolism continues after the movie.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yes, absolutely, yes.

After the movie, your award nominations came rolling in

And after the movie, your award nominations came rolling in. You were nominated and won the BAFTA and the film won the Oscar for best, hair and makeup. I was curious about the process of that submission process of the two prestigious awards because I see that in one there were four people, that were able to be listed. And then the Oscars, there are three names that are able to be listed. And I've seen this, this, this dilemma before, with Elvis, the film Elvis. And so I was curious to talk to you about that because again for Elvis there were four names for the BAFTA and then three. So what happens to that fourth name, which in this case was yours. Yeah, I did not go unnoticed.

You were on the emails with Stephanie and Pop as we were getting awards

so I wanted to ask you candidly about that process and if you could explain it to me.

>> Frederique Aguello: Actually I was very surprised about what was happening.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Sure.

>> Frederique Aguello: I wasn't expecting this because, from September to December I was the American distributor was Mubi sending me emails with Stephanie and Pop as we were getting awards and there was only the three of us, you know, the main people.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Stephanie is the makeup girl. Yes. And you were on the emails and.

>> Frederique Aguello: Yeah, Stephanie makeup, designer.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yep.

>> Frederique Aguello: Hair designer, myself and Pop as a fix design prosthetics.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yes.

>> Frederique Aguello: So far so good. You know, I was very happy. We were receiving a lot of awards. And then, on December the, the producer, French, producer said oh great, you have to send a portrait because we want the long lists as far right.

>> Tiffany Bartok: The long lists, yes. Which m are very exciting because I was very. Now they're published. Yeah.

>> Frederique Aguello: Okay. and then, there's a short list that comes out in January, 23rd. So I was just sitting in front of my TV. I was just, you know, waiting, you know, all excited about, you know, if the actual nominations. Yeah.

>> Frederique Aguello: I saw it on TV and I saw the name of Marilyn, my assistant instead of mine.

>> Tiffany Bartok: For the Oscar.

>> Frederique Aguello: For the Oscar and That was. It was a little shock, of course.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Of course. So. And you spoke earlier of being on the cast list at, I mean, in the credits and finding out when you saw the film about the key makeup. Yes. And you did not know that that was your title until the credits rolled, so something had gotten lost in translation.

>> Frederique Aguello: Yeah, exactly. And, actually, I didn't know she was. You know, I filled out a submission for the Oscar, but I didn't know I was, competing with my assistant. Okay. She did, too. And I. But I didn't know she was filing out one. So.

>> Tiffany Bartok: So the three of you who you name, who were on all the emails, filled out the application, mailed it back in just like you had been doing.

>> Frederique Aguello: It's like, you know, it's confidential. You're supposed to do it at home on your own.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah.

>> Frederique Aguello: Just did just, like, what I explained to you what I did on both actresses, because not only did I design, but I worked on sets all the time. Okay. And, Marine was my assistant. You know, she was just curling some. Some hair pieces. You know, she also worked, you know, I. I put the wig two days. She put the wig on two days. But we did exactly the same thing because I was working on Margaret the same days. As far as the wig went. I designed the wig also with, Guylaine Tortoreau, which is a wig maker in France. she has a shop, is called Pirouque. I want to talk about her because she's very good.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Oh, wonderful. Wonderful.

>> Frederique Aguello: And, Ah. And, what Marlene did is just like, ah, just a braid in the back, you know, with the prosthetic team, because there was, like, six of them and Marilyn just doing a braid.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yes, she explained that. I remember her telling me about that.

>> Frederique Aguello: and then I left, like, three weeks early, unfortunately, when my father died. And then we had the same, credit, the same title on the credit because she became a key hair while I was gone.

>> Tiffany Bartok: So you don't know. She sent in a submission for the Oscar.

>> Frederique Aguello: The production, probably gave her the right to send a submission, and she did. But I didn't know about this, so I didn't know I was competing with Marlene. And, when you fill out a submission, nobody, sees it. You write whatever you want. Okay, so that's interesting. M. I don't know. Then there was a portfolio done. I wasn't asked to give some pictures. You know, she was taking the pictures while I was doing the work. She had anything in her inner iPad, so I really don't Know what happened at one point. But anyway, it's not the Academy. I think they have been misguided by, who did what. And, That's all I gotta say for now. But it's really, Yeah, it was. It was a little shock.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Crushing. Crushing.

>> Frederique Aguello: It's not like we were both like, you know, from the beginning, you know, we had our own, actress and, you know, we both worked on.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah, yeah.

>> Frederique Aguello: Now that's not what happened.

Okay, so is there any way that you. I mean, like, I want to see that document

>> Tiffany Bartok: Okay, so is there any way that you. I mean, like, I want to see that document. Like, is there any way to not. But is there any way that anybody has a right to see the submissions and evaluate them? You don't know?

>> Frederique Aguello: I don't know yet.

You spoke about the Oscar controversy two days before the ceremony

>> Tiffany Bartok: So tell me the timeline. So you went and all of you won the BAFTA?

>> Frederique Aguello: Yeah, all of us won the BAFTAs. Because, Actually, the producer told me, well, Marian called me, she wanted to get also some awards and I said, okay, fine, you know, she can come to. Did I know she was also gonna, you know, take the Oscar?

>> Tiffany Bartok: I don't mean to laugh, but that's very. That was very generous of you to.

>> Frederique Aguello: Be like, I'm not thinking about it too now because.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Thank God. Yeah, you have to. You have to.

>> Frederique Aguello: Yeah.

>> Tiffany Bartok: So at the BAFTAs, did you know, when you were all standing up there, had you known that she was, one of. Oh, my God.

>> Frederique Aguello: Yes, I knew about it since, January 23rd when it came out. So, you know, I spoke to production. We. I send mails, they send a letter to the Academy.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Okay.

>> Frederique Aguello: But then I think, you know, it was just too late because, the names were out and I don't think the. I don't know if the Academy really understood because they. It's, it's. It was a little mess, you know, and me, I didn't want to be involved in, making a scandal back then.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Of, Course. Well, look what happened to Maria, Emilia Perez. Like, you know, you don't. You can't these days. You can't have rock the boat at all until it's all over because you can lose the os. You can give the whole.

>> Frederique Aguello: Right. I didn't want. I didn't want them to blame me for losing.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah.

>> Frederique Aguello: like, what if, you know, Demi lost it, you know?

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I lost it.

>> Frederique Aguello: If I had spoken about it at that time, they would have said maybe it was your fault, you know? Yes, I spoke about it, like two days before the ceremony. I just put a little post on my Instagram, but it wasn't mean. It was just, you know, I just.

>> Tiffany Bartok: No, but you knew people were going to be looking, and so you wanted to have something there.

>> Frederique Aguello: Want m a little, you know, little help, like, you know, can you. Well, you know, I'm, I don't know what's happening, but it wasn't mean or anything.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah, yeah.

>> Frederique Aguello: No, no, no, no, no. Yeah.

>> Tiffany Bartok: I don't think anything that you're saying sounds like sour grape. Do you know what I mean by sour grapes? Sour. Nothing that you're saying sounds, you know, like what we were talking about earlier, like, jealous or anything like this. it's not out of an anger. Angry.

>> Frederique Aguello: No. And believe me, believe me, it's, it's, it's a tough one. Yes. No, it's really a tough one to deal with because an Oscar, to me, it's an institution which I fully admire ever since I was a little girl, you know, to me, all those great actresses and all those great, directors and, and I never thought I would get an Oscar curve one day because we do not have, awards in France for handling.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yes, of course.

>> Frederique Aguello: Maybe next, not next week, but next year. Maybe next year. They're, they're working on it. But, so to me, I was like, I never did this job to get a, you know, an award. So, especially after working for 30 years in this business, it would have been nice to, you know, just get recognition and, so that, that hurts more than anything else.

>> Tiffany Bartok: And more than that, you want it, you know, you, it was won, but you don't get to hold it. And, you know, it's not in the history books. That is really brutal. I really, really, really feel for you about that.

>> Frederique Aguello: Yeah, I think it's the world. I think it's the word because. And I think I did, I dealt with it pretty good. But, yeah, because really, when this happens to you, it's like, it's like.

>> Tiffany Bartok: And just that it was such a, you didn't have any say in the decision making. You know, that's the part that doesn't sit well with me. Like, it was not, it was not like a discussion. It was just presented to you as. This is what it is.

>> Frederique Aguello: M. She. Yeah, I never knew she was feeling out. I, never knew that. M. Yeah, it was done behind my back. I didn't know. Yes, and, and I'm not blaming the, the academy.

>> Tiffany Bartok: No. But I, I, I have, I have.

>> Frederique Aguello: Sure.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yes, I, I know you aren't at all. But I have always seen a Problem with this category in particular, in that you have to limit so strictly the number of people whose names. I don't understand why The BAFTA gets four, the Oscar gets three. I feel like of the two of them, they should. Either they should be even or there should be some more clear guidelines about.

>> Frederique Aguello: Well, actually, they're pretty clear because I. I read now a little bit too late. I read, the. The rules, and there's only three people, which. Which is okay when you know about it, because hair, makeup, the. The principal person, you know, who did the styling, who did the design, and on top of this, who was on set. Like, no.

I'm really glad that you're telling your story about Marilyn Monroe

Like, it's not like, I just designed and I left.

>> Tiffany Bartok: no. Yeah.

>> Frederique Aguello: So, at the BAFTAs, you know, they're very generous for what Marilyn did. You know, it was great. You know, she. She had a bafta. Okay. She, you know, for the first three, four months, you know, she was just, doing what I asked her to do. And then the last three weeks. Four weeks. Let's just put it this way. Four weeks. Okay. to make sure. then it's good. It's fine. But, So it's okay if you know about it and if you know what's happening. exactly.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah. You could have, like, had a conversation about it and, like, come to terms with it before it was doing.

>> Frederique Aguello: No, no, no, no. That's not the way it worked. This is. This is what I did. I have to picture. I have the. The call sheets. I, have my contracts. I have a lot of documents.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yes, yes, you have all that. And I didn't, like. Now that I found out about this, I didn't like that there was no, like, nod to. To you that who brought this person onto the job. So, that was. Yeah, because there's two opportunities. There's an opportunity to say something on stage, and there's an opportunity to say. Say something in the press room, and then there's an opportunity to say something in a private call or a private, you know, conversation. So there's been no correspondence.

>> Frederique Aguello: Yeah. And on top of this, you know, well, it's. It's been kind of nasty, you know.

>> Tiffany Bartok: But, I can imagine so.

>> Frederique Aguello: But I. I try to stay, you know, calm about it, and. And. And hopefully the truth will come out.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yes.

>> Frederique Aguello: I mean, I believe in the truth. I believe in the truth no matter how long it takes. But I. And I do. And, you know, there's not a thing much I can say.

>> Tiffany Bartok: No. But other people can say it for you. So, you know, I think that this is. I'm. M really glad that you're telling your story. A lot of people would say, like, I don't want people. They would overanalyze how that would be received. But you presenting this facts and telling us exactly what happens, I mean, I'm making my own evaluation of the situation. It just does not seem right and seems like something that you should fight. And, you know, I think it's really important, too, because possibly this could change. Change things for other artists as well.

>> Frederique Aguello: It is important to me.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah.

>> Frederique Aguello: For the statuette. It's not for the Oscar. It's just for my honor. It's as simple as that.

>> Tiffany Bartok: I just can't believe that the two. The two Oscars that were, That this movie was nominated for, that there's two stories like this. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's so crazy. Like, I picture you just, like, in the substance, watching. Watching that all unfold the way to.

>> Frederique Aguello: Me, it's like if. If I didn't open my mouth, which I did, really, like a two. A few days before the ceremony where the votes had been done, like, I influenced any.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

>> Frederique Aguello: I would be. I would be just, like, you know, eating in front of my tv, just like, yes, yes. And, being like Elizabeth, you know, with a monster, like, trying to scream in her back, like, yes, yes, I'm here. I'm here.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yes, yes, yes.

>> Frederique Aguello: I don't know if this happened before, but anyway, it's kind of. Well, that's the way it is for now.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah. I don't think I've ever heard a tale where it was a surprise like this. I don't. I have heard that. There's been, you know, a conversation before, you know, and then it's like, okay, I'll let. I'm just gonna surrender and give it up.

Fred: I'm very sorry about what happened to Julia

Yeah, yeah, go ahead. Take what you want.

>> Frederique Aguello: I've mentioned that, actually, with, Emilia Perez, because I know all of them. I know the crew because they're all French, of course.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah, yeah.

>> Frederique Aguello: We don't know each other.

>> Tiffany Bartok: I spoke with Julia.

>> Frederique Aguello: Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's lovely.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Lovely.

>> Frederique Aguello: Yeah. And, this is what happened with Julia. Yeah. She said, there was a designer, Roma, which was. Okay. He went to the baftas, and then they had it, because there was. Romain only did the design, but he was. He wasn't on set.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Got it.

>> Frederique Aguello: So she said, hey, I think, you know, the hairstylist should go to the Oscar. And then they agreed upon it, you know, Exactly. They were very clear.

>> Tiffany Bartok: That seems normal to me. Yeah. I'm very sorry about. I really feel for you. I really feel for you. I, I would hope that people can hear, this and like, you know, if this has happened to them, that I. I kind of hope that people will start talking about something like this and I hope that, yeah, we.

>> Frederique Aguello: Need to speak out. You know, it's not that we're gonna go to prison or anything. I got my Oscars.

>> Tiffany Bartok: I mean, it's like your work is. Your work is Oscar award winning.

>> Frederique Aguello: My work. And, you know, and to me, I feel like I've, I've, It's not only my work on this movie, it's my work for the past 30 years.

>> Tiffany Bartok: One hundred.

>> Frederique Aguello: A hundred percent, I take it.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Yeah, it's important. It's very important. so we're gonna, we're gonna release this episode and then, I would love to hear from. From other people in our audience, their opinions and, you know, perhaps maybe amplify what exactly has happened. I know that you're not asking for that, but I am, I am asking for that because I know you don't. You're. You're handling this with a lot of grace. But in sharing your story, you know, I would encourage people to. To really share what, what has happened because it's important.

>> Frederique Aguello: Thank you.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Of course, of course. Thank you so much, Fred.

>> Frederique Aguello: Thank you.

Look behind the look is a vinyl foot production written by Tiffany Bartok

Okay.

>> Tiffany Bartok: Look behind the look is a vinyl foot production written by me, your host, Tiffany Bartok. Produced by Jace Bartok. Edited by Mugres Thakor. If you're interested in learning more, find our video version on the YouTube channel look behind the look podcast. There you can see rare photos and clips from our guests. And please follow us on Twitter ookbehindpod and Instagram at Look behind the Look. If you like the show, please rate, review and subscribe and tell your friends and spread the word. You can subscribe to us on itunes or any podcatcher of your choice. Thanks for listening to look behind the Look.